The Vision Architect

[10/28] VISION 217 - Inspire trust (something like that :)
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[00:00:23] Simon Vetter (2): Welcome to The Vision Architect A lot of people in business believe they have a strategy or execution problem. My guest today believes that they have a trust problem in disguise. I'm excited about our conversations with Justin Patton. He grew up on a farm in Kentucky, was a English teacher for five years, learned body language from FBI agents, and then got into public speaking and coaching.

He is author of five books, including Managers Who Build Trust. He has spoken to many audiences, thousands of people also in restaurant business. He's a executive coach, and I'm super excited for our conversations today. Welcome, Justin.

[00:01:13] Justin Patton (2): Hey, partner. Thank you. I'm so excited to be here

[00:01:15] Simon Vetter (2): Awesome. So let's start with this trust issue in disguise.

[00:01:20] Justin Patton (2): Yeah

[00:01:21] Simon Vetter (2): Can you elaborate on

that?

[00:01:23] Justin Patton (2): Yeah. I don't know about you and the people listening, but I find that all the time we're always... I hear this in, in board meetings. People are like, "Oh, people just don't wanna work. Teams aren't talking to each other. Managers aren't giving the feedback

that they need to

hear." And I'm probably biased, Simon, but I kinda feel when you hear those types of comments, that's really just trust

problems in disguise. We're usually turning away

from each other and not having the conversations that we need to be having , to create the type of trust or loyalty that would either keep our people or our customers coming back. And I think when we start seeing them as trust problems, we start thinking about different types of solutions or ways we need to engage

[00:02:03] Simon Vetter (2): Got it. We'll talk more about the concept of trust, how to build it and keep it. Let's go back a little bit to your background. You grew up on a farm in Kentucky. How did that shape who you are today?

[00:02:14] Justin Patton (2): Yeah. listen, I grew up on a farm with a bunch of cows, bunch of animals, and so I think it was really about work ethic and getting up early. I've chased more cows in my life than I ever care to ever have to do again, and I couldn't wait to get out of that farm life. And somehow, as an adult, here I am back.

I have eight acres in Louisville, Kentucky. I'm back on this kind of farm life. Don't have a clue what I'm doing, but I'm trying to figure it out. But I will say, it definitely taught me work ethic and more importantly, I think just respect for all things and the value that all things have, which probably has influenced my work on trust in some capacity, in learning to see the value in, in anything

[00:02:53] Simon Vetter (2): And then you were teaching English for five years

[00:02:56] Justin Patton (2): Yeah

[00:02:57] Simon Vetter (2): high school. What did you learn from teaching high school students?

[00:03:01] Justin Patton (2): For me, the biggest thing I think as a teacher, which I love teaching, never thought I'd get out of the cl- of the formal classroom setting. But you better figure out real quick how to be a really great teacher so the kiddos aren't running amok and, and a- and taking control of things. So I really learned early on how to engage people in the way that I deliver a message, especially in a room, how to bring out the brilliance of other people versus trying to make it about me, and, ask questions that really got people thinking.

So as... I don't know if I would be where I am today speaking on all these, you know, platforms had I not been a really successful teacher first. So super thankful for that background and just the students that I look back and I was 21 years old starting out. I would say I wasn't much older than those

kiddos. And it was a testing ground, right? You're, you're trying stuff and some

things

don't work

but, I was at a very

small school, and so by the time they graduated, I had taught almost every s- kid in that entire school. And so I just really

developed great relationships and just, appreciate

now in hindsight the way that they were able to show up for me and give me the opportunity

to, to try things in a way that probably hadn't been done in those types of classrooms before.

[00:04:18] Simon Vetter (2): You do that so masterfully. I've seen you on stage engaging audiences, and I think people, when we teach, people wanna be engaged.

It's not a one-way, communication, and I, I really appreciate how you

do it. And also you bring out the brilliance in

people. let's talk about, your experience f- from learning about body language and

presence.

again, body language says a lot about how we communicate. What were some of the nuggets you got from that

training?

[00:04:50] Justin Patton (2): My favorite is about what's the most honest part of the body. And obviously when I'm in programs, I ask people that, because 95% of the room will always say it's either your face or your eyes. That's what we've been taught. So I mean, look at people in the face and eyes. Our whole life we've been told that over and over, and we probably lie with our face and eyes the most, and the answer is it is actually your feet.

So the further you get away from your brain, the less conscious you are of it, and your feet will typically always face the direction that you're interested in. So I pay it very close attention, not even about other people's feet. This is what's interesting. When you go study with

anyone in law enforcement, FBI, they are trying to analyze other

people's body language, and it's sexy topic.

Everyone wants to learn, "How do I read other people?" That is not what I

teach, and here's why. All these

leaders are listening to

your podcast. I'm a big believer that if you are so consumed and worried about what everyone else's body language is saying, you are not focused on your own. And I would rather you be focused more on, how is my body language impacting my message and my ability to connect with the other person on the other side?

And so it's, to me, Some of the basic stuff that people have heard, but I will say the idea of understanding Where are my feet pointed? How open am I?

not

about trying to manipulate other people, but in a way that I

can

make

people feel safe.

because when they feel safe, they are more likely to continue opening up to me even more.

So I'm, I'm very aware of that, and I think that's what leaders need to be more aware of

[00:06:25] Simon Vetter (2): There's one thing about when we focus on our feet, it's also how grounded we

are,

[00:06:30] Justin Patton (2): Yeah.

[00:06:31] Simon Vetter (2): how centered we are. We start with the feet

and

[00:06:35] Justin Patton (2): had a, manager... you can see I'm very passionate person, and I have to... I had a boss early on in my career, she goes,

"Justin, I want you to practice wearing concrete boots." That was her analogy, because she knew that if I got on the edge of my seat and I start getting my hands moving, it's overtime.

And like it's, I'm gonna... My intensity often gets in the way, but when I have to put my feet flat on the floor and sit back in a chair, it's what you just said, I'm way more grounded. When I coach someone, I purposefully actually sit in the chair and I put my feet on the floor and I lean in like this because it makes my energy become more grounded versus being intense in this overly energetic way, which is probably not gonna bring out what I need from that other person.

So understanding how to flex your style so that you can meet people really where they are

[00:07:27] Simon Vetter (2): Any other, insights you learned

from,

about the tons. I'll give you... I'll just give you one more. There's the other one that's, we talked about deception, which I don't teach about deception 'cause here even the experts are wrong 50% of the time. There is no one sign for deception. But we do know that there's one thing we often look for, and it's when someone does this.

[00:07:47] Justin Patton (2): You're talking to someone and they're like, "Hey, you know, where do you wanna go to dinner?" And they're like, "Well, let's just go down the street." It's this whole shrug thing, and it doesn't mean you're lying, it means there's usually more to the story than what the person is saying. And so anytime I see someone shrug, whether it's with their hand, and it's usually just one-sided.

Most gestures are symmetrical, so when we talk, we do things that are very symmetrical. When we're like this, it's like if your partner came to you tonight and said, "Do you love me?" You don't be like, "Yeah, why do you ask me?" N- most people don't do that. And so in my brain, what I've obviously been taught there is I'll ask someone, "Is there any reason why there's more to that story than what you're telling me?"

The reason that works is most people, if they are trying to be deceptive, most people don't lie outright and just say a full lie. They tell half-truths. So they either leave something out, you know, whatever. And so when I'm talking to someone, if I, I'm very aware of kinda what's in front of me, if I see them kinda do this, "Where do you wanna go to dinner?"

It just means they're probably not bought into the answer. And so either if it's not a big deal, I just let it go and don't say anything, but if it's a signal to me to say, "Huh," I get curious, " why did that just happen? And what is a question that I could ask that could maybe peel that back just a little bit more?"

[00:09:03] Simon Vetter (2): And it takes a lot of awareness and observation from your part to stay in tune and, and with the connection. So talking about trust, you call yourself the vision architect. What was the turning point where you started to say, "You know what? I wanna focus on trust." What was that determining factor and when

happened?

[00:09:26] Justin Patton (2): So the trust architect, yeah. I remember... I'm gonna take you back a little bit further, but early in my- when I was 18, my dad died very suddenly, and I, like many kiddos, did not know how to handle that type of grief and pain, so I just emotionally disconnected. And so I always tell people I spent probably 12 years of my life emotionally disconnected.

I always kinda say dead from my neck down, and threw myself into my career, used my job to validate myself, used my job to get great results, and the more results I got, the more I kept getting rewarded, which fueled my confidence. But it didn't serve me probably in my relationships. it's really hard to show up your best when you're emotionally disconnected.

You can't have empathy. You lack emotional regulation, all these things. And at about 30, I got pushed out of a job I really loved, and I just remember sitting on the ground and I was thinking, "I know that I can play bigger, but I'm gonna have to get out

of my own way." I know there is at least one of your people listening to this podcast that's on the other end going, "I know I can play bigger either at work, in my leadership role, in my marriage, my community," but I, I think it often requires us to think differently about how we're showing up.

Now, I didn't have the answers at that moment, but that was the aha, was I knew that I could play bigger, but I was gonna have to get out of my own way and really start thinking differently about how I was showing up. Which is, I got help, went to... Then I eventually went to the Body Language Institute and studied body language, and then got, over years, you're talking 20 years of, you know, training and certifications, and really to say, how do I help people understand their presence and how to use that presence to build trust?

Not because I got it all together, but Lord knows I got it wrong for a really long time, and I would love to be able to use what part I have left of my life to help people think differently about how they're showing up

[00:11:21] Simon Vetter (2): It was like a switch that you decided, "I'm gonna get out of my own way and figure it out to be more present, be more authentic, be more real."

[00:11:30] Justin Patton (2): And that's, hard 'cause you have to have the willingness to turn towards yourself to say, " I can spend the rest of my life blaming everyone else, my family, my friends, my boss, my organization," or I'm at least gonna say, "What is my role and how, and how I contributed to this?" They might have parts to own as well, but I can't fix that.

What I can fix is the parts of how I'm contributing to this messiness or whatever that is, and that is what I was committing to figure out, was I'm gonna turn back towards myself and do what I need to do or what I could do to start showing up better, and then see where that would lead me

[00:12:08] Simon Vetter (2): Yeah a friend of mine, he's a coach too, he said, "How am I complicit with the experiences And outcome I create or I experience?"

[00:12:16] Justin Patton (2): Yeah. And I remember too, at some point in that journey, there was a

YouTube

video I watched a long time ago. It was from a guy who was a speaker for National

Geographic,

and he said, " I'm not worried about trying to get it right. I'm just looking for the next right answer." And I love that line because I find that it is so overwhelming to figure out what do I want for a year from now?

We ask kids all the time, "What do you wanna be when you grow up?" I'm like, "I don't even know what's gonna happen next week," right? And so this idea of I stopped trying to figure it all out, and I kept saying to myself, "What is the next right answer?" And I believe that we all know the next right answer. I might not know three answers down, but I know the next one.

And so for me it was like, okay, I need to go, m- whether it's therapy, I need to go to get a certification. I need to stay in this marriage and commit more. I need to get out. You know what? I, I haven't been telling the, keeping my boss in the

loop as much as I need to. So once I got clear about what the next right answer was, I gave it everything I got, and then that always led to the next right answer after that.

And that, that alone also really served me well, is quit trying to figure it all out and just focus on the next right answer.

[00:13:25] Simon Vetter (2): I struggle that with myself. I have a, vision for the long term. I wanna... I have an idea where I wanna be, and to your point, sometimes it's a fuzzy vision. But then how do I plan the next step? How do you plan and prepare for the short-term, midterm, and long term? Let's say talk about your business.

[00:13:46] Justin Patton (2): yeah, I think there's a couple things. I want people to dream big in life, and I, I want people to have these big dreams in their business, their, how they wanna show up in life. Then I really, I think this is what's answering your question, is then, for me, I step back and just say, "What's the next right answer?

Is it writing the book?" And then commit to going all in. I could commit to one thing and go all in, or I could half commit to five, and I would rather commit all in on one thing knowing that as I write the book, all of a sudden my friend's like, "Do you know who else you should know? You should go meet this person."

And I'm like, "That feels like the next right answer." And so I really, for me and how I grew my

business, t- couple things, was always to get clear about what I believe in my intuition is that next right thing, and then all of the other things kind of were a result of that. Let me give you one f- quick other example.

My mom has Alzheimer's. It's horrible. I hate it. anybody that's listening, the family's gone through it, they know it's just a very

cruel disease. And

In my life, I want

to be a planner, and, like, I wanna protect my mom. So, like, I wanna have all these plans and contingencies that if something happens, this is what we're gonna

do. But I realize, Simon, literally 100 different things could happen that would derail any type

of plan. So what it made

me

realize for myself

was.

I am just, my job is to make her feel safe and loved in the moment. So Every

day it is, what will make her feel safe and loved? And then that is kind of the driving force of how we, show up,

knowing that I could go do all these other five things and spend all this energy, all this money, all this time, and none of those could come to fruition.

Or one thing happens, and then it's none of those would even work. We gotta go this direction. And so for me, it's really about being present, understanding what does this moment call for, and then if I'm gonna plan a little bit ahead, what do I feel the next

right answer is? So that's just what has served me.

I'm not saying that's the right answer. But I find whether it's with my family.

or with my business or even my clients and the, and the, and the people that I get to serve, that's the way that I feel like has really helped me show up, and be nimble in the way that I show up

[00:16:01] Simon Vetter (2): I lo- I love this concept of presence, and then how do I make the other person feel safe and loved, which is the foundation of trust.

[00:16:09] Justin Patton (2): Yeah. It's,

um, my favorite quote of all t- yeah

[00:16:12] Simon Vetter (2): can you elaborate on, on this concept of

trust?

What is it? How do we know we feel it?

[00:16:18] Justin Patton (2): Yeah. We defi-- I, I'm gonna say in my company, in my world, the Trust Architect Group, we define trust as the unwavering belief that you are gonna have my back, and I think that's really important. And the reason I b- I'm biased, the reason I believe that is

because you can be married and alone.

You can be running an organization and feel like, "Oh my gosh, I'm in this alone and no one has my back." Those are really lonely places to be. And so it's what would have to change in the dynamic, the culture, the way that I'm showing up for people on that team to feel like you're not in it alone, we've got each other's back in the process.

Everyone I've ever talked to says that trust is important. I agree with them. But then what happens is I walk

into the teams And I'm

like, Y'all are saying all the right words, but it isn't alive here." So like, where is the disconnect between the words and the actions? And I wanted to give people very tangible, specific actions, moves, we call them moves, moves that they could do to bring that type of trust that I'm talking about to life

[00:17:28] Simon Vetter (2): How do we align our words and action to make people feel that unwavering belief that they have our back?

[00:17:36] Justin Patton (2): Yeah. Well, you have-- we believe you have to do three things, and you have to do all three. You do not get to pick and choose which of these three is important. So we say that trust is built with transparency, tact, and togetherness. And let me give an example about why those are important. I get to coach a lot of executives, and I cannot tell you how many executives I have coached that say this famous line.

They're like, "Listen, I'm just a truth-teller. I just tell people how it is." I love that line. Oh my gosh, every time it happens. And, and when I'm in a, with an audience, I'll say, "When somebody tells you they are a truth-teller, what do you think they're really telling you?" And I believe they're usually a jerk, and here's why.

They've learned, especially the executives I've coached, they have learned to value transparency. Like tell it, tell it the way it is, right? The problem is you don't get to value transparency but not value

tact. And so tact is our

ability to make

people feel safe. So how you deliver that

transparency is just as important as the way-- a-as the

transparency. And then togetherness is this idea that I can make it feel like it is a team effort. An example is you have people that say, a lot of high performers that I've coached are not good team players." I want people listening to hear that. A lot of high

performers are not good team players. They say stuff like this: "Just give it to me, I'll go do it myself."

That's great if you're an individual contributor. That's great if you're only the person on the team that gets to do the work. But I'm more concerned about you not getting it done by yourself, how does how you show up impact everyone else on the team? And so togetherness is I take responsibility for how my actions, my words, my presence impacts everyone,

not just me. And so when you can really get good or be aware

of does the way that I

communicate, is it really transparent, is it tactful, and does it focus on togetherness? I think only then will you build the type of trust that you and I are talking about, both at work and home.

And last thing

on

that, if there's any relationship where trust is not where someone wants it to be, it's

usually

because one of

more of those are missing out of that relationship. So I would want everyone on the call to be thinking about, you know, listening to the podcast, gosh, transparency,

tact, and togetherness I'm having a problem with my boss, my peer, my

partner. Which of those do I know is the one that's taking the biggest hit and where we need to kinda do the work first?

What's the next right move that I need to rethink about?

[00:20:12] Simon Vetter (2): Yeah. That's powerful. To build trust, I like those three things: transparency, tact, togetherness. Before we can trust others, we have to also have a trust in ourselves. How do we build that self-trust, that belief in ourselves?

[00:20:27] Justin Patton (2): Yeah. You're speaking my language over here. I love it. All right. So, I'm, I, I agree. I think when you lack confidence or how we're gonna describe it as self-trust, you armor up, and you keep everyone in an arm's length distance. And it's dangerous because two things happen. One is if you wanna find a reason not to trust people, I think you'll always find it, 'cause you're always searching for it.

But I think this is the most dangerous thing that I think happens. When you don't trust yourself, you turn away

from other

people. And when we start turning away, after we turn away, we usually go silent, and we stop saying the things that we need to say in relationships, in, at work, whatever. And I find that after silence comes resentment, and it is hard to come back from resentment.

And so if we define

trust, what you were talking

about earlier between people is this unwavering belief that, you're gonna have my back, self-trust is the unwavering belief that I can have my own. And so I would say out of every executive I've ever coached, , if I had to strip the problems down to like a one core

topic,

over 80 to 90% of all the problems came down to a lack of confidence almost every time.

And I'll give you the one tip. One of the things that we

know is that

your voice is directly

connected

to your confidence. People will say, "Oh, I'll just

speak up once I'm confident." I'm like, "Boo, you are not gonna speak up the rest of your life." It does not happen that way, 'cause it's risky to speak up. I don't know how my partner's gonna take it.

I don't know if this idea is gonna get shot down in front of this meeting or are there gonna be consequences for speaking this up? But people that have

self-trust trust themselves enough to know that no matter

what

happens, I will be able to accept the rewards and the consequences that come with me owning

my voice. And I think the more that they do that, the more they start believing in themselves and the, value that their

voice actually has. So to me, it's the core of everything that you and I are talking about

[00:22:31] Simon Vetter (2): Agree. Confidence, trust, that belief in self is fundamental. If you have a, a younger person, early 20s, they're starting a career and they have se- self-doubt, they question themselves, what tips and recommendations, strategies do you give that person to build that

confidence?

[00:22:51] Justin Patton (2): I'm gonna give you three. One is the one I just said. The number one I would say is own your voice, 'cause I think you have to be able to own your voice and understand that's gonna be a big, catalyst to having more self-confidence. Number two is I want them to develop their competence. I don't want them to put all of their self-worth in their smarts and how much they

know, but I do think when you go

all

in on something and you, get more knowledge, you feel more confident that you have something of value to contribute.

And so I would

say develop your competence in an area. I remember early in my career, a mentor asked me, he goes, "Justin, what do you wanna be an expert in?" Do you know, Simon, not one leader besides that man ever asked me that question in my entire career. And what it did is it gave me permission to start dreaming bigger.

And no one had ever said, "What do you wanna be an expert in?" He goes, "I know you might not be today, but what do you wanna be an expert in?" So I would say find your voice, grow your confidence, what you wanna be an expert in. And the last thing, I love this one, it says, we would teach them to go on an advice detox, because people that usually lack

confidence go to everyone they know and when they have to make a

decision, and they say, "What do you think I should do?"

And what happens is they outsource their own decision-making, their own intuition. So we tell them for, like, two weeks, "You don't get to ask anyone else, 'What do you think I should do?' What choice would you make if you were believing and trusting in yourself?" And it's usually pretty

remarkable of what happens when you combine those three things over a consistent period of time.

So those are the three I would give people

[00:24:27] Simon Vetter (2): The last thing is about creating agency

[00:24:30] Justin Patton (2): Yeah

[00:24:31] Simon Vetter (2): for your own life. It's interesting, when I look back in my life when I was 25, the most maturing and valuable time in my life was mid-25, when I was a mountain bike tour guide in Greece. And it was, to your point, I developed a competency to be on my own, be a tour guide with tourists in the hills, in the mountains of, of Crete, along canyons and beaches, and it shaped me.

I put myself in a uncomfortable situation, and I grew in that environment. So to your point is, like, I built competencies and skills to stand on my own

[00:25:13] Justin Patton (2): Can I, can I share one that I've never shared?

I was talking to someone the other day and I said, " One of the things I'm most grateful for in high school and in college," I was in marching band. I went to-- Obviously I was in, you know, did a bunch of competitions, and I said, "I am so thankful , that I learned how to lose."

And I would've never said that when I was younger. But what I realize now is it sucks. No one likes to lose. But I realized that I was always able to bounce back, and it was never so bad. And by losing, I learned how to pick myself up, be more

resilient, and I think I've never talked about it with c- in, within how it relates to trust.

But I find that when you have people, and this has been my experience, especially with younger people, there's a line that I see all over social media. People are like, "Good vibes only." I can't

stand it. It's like, "Good vibes

only." And

the problem that I have with good vibes only is when it's not good, they don't know how to deal with it.

And I do think if I was working with someone younger, I don't think I ever would have given that advice about get involved in something that's competitive or where you're putting yourself out there to be judged in something. I used to coach Miss Kentucky before she went to Miss America, and I got to see all of those young women get on stage, and all of them...

You know, you got 30 women on stage, 29 are walking off losing, right? But it was never about the loss, it was what they learned through it. And that even when they did lose, that, okay, life's still gonna go on. Nothing's gonna change that much. I'm gonna figure out what I need to do, and I'll be better because of it.

I don't think I've talked about that enough, but I think that's a really important piece of learning how to develop your self-confidence so that when you do lose, it doesn't get destroyed

[00:27:00] Simon Vetter (2): Yeah. Yeah. I hate losing. When

I grew up, I played

soccer does. I still hate it now.

and I, I, I think I learned how to lose more gracefully.

[00:27:12] Justin Patton (2): Yeah.

[00:27:13] Simon Vetter (2): To your point, it's like, Yeah we give our best and... And so I was part of a, a, a, a team in my 40s here i- in California, and we played soccer every Sunday. And, the first season I said, "Let's win, let's win."

And then we didn't win. And the second season it's, " Let's just have a good time." And we said, "If we win, we celebrate. If we lose, we all drink beer together."

And we won in that season because we were relaxed, we had a good time, we support each other, we created, like, trust among each other. And so, sometimes it's when we take a little bit that edge off, it makes people feel more safe and loved, as you said

[00:27:50] Justin Patton (2): Yeah. and I will say, I, I want people... I have... Pat Summitt is one of my favorite leaders of all time, and she used to be obviously the coach at University of Tennessee Lady Vols, one of the most winningest basketball coaches of all time. And she used to tell them,

she, she would say basically that, "I want you to go out and compete."

and she goes, "And it's okay to compete." And I think I

want people to hear what you and I are talking about. It's

okay

to, to work hard, to go out and win and be

relentless at, at working on your craft to where you're gonna give it everything that you

got. But if

for

chance, if by chance we do

lose,

it's gonna be okay. And to your point, can I be... I, I think there's, it says a lot about character. I also think a lot about

trust, on how you

lose.

when you're disappointed, how do you treat other people? When someone doesn't meet your expectations as a leader, how do you show up? I have this crazy...

I used to joke, and I'm really not joking when I tell you this, Simon.

I, I think if you wanna see someone's real character, how good they are at really building trust with people, people should watch how they drive their car. And I am very serious about that because how do you respond to someone when someone doesn't meet your expectations? Right now it's just a driver who I could care

less about, but then I see people, they know they're trying to get around them, they're like, "Not today," and they're

speeding up.

Other people are honking the horn or flicking people off. And I always say, "Okay, I

understand you're on the

interstate today, but one day you're gonna be in a team and someone's not gonna meet the project deadline the way that you wanted it. Another day, your kid's gonna come to you and they have screwed up, and you're gonna be disappointed in your kid."

I'm more concerned about how you treat people who don't live up to your expectations. That teaches me a lot about your character, about your presence, and how you're using your presence to build trust with people. and so though I used to joke about that, I, I definitely think it represents a lot about how someone shows up

just in life And

in the world, especially when things aren't going easily or as they planned

[00:29:49] Simon Vetter (2): Now imagine you're a leader. You have a team, high demands, and there are people who are not living up to those expectations. You're not meeting expectations, but the, the stake are high. Performance is, is to deliver. How do you, as a leader, infuse trust into this team under tremendous pressure and performance expectations?

[00:30:12] Justin Patton (2): I'll say a few things. One is, I don't think it's one thing. So I don't think it's fair to say, "Oh, you know, oh, what is the one thing I can come in here and do and build trust?" Trust is not built in one big thing. It's built in, like, 100 small things. So I wanna see what are

the

100 small

things that you did all along

this journey. How did you respond in your emails back to people? when someone came to you and they were struggling, did you put empathy before information? Did you have the conversations, coaching and performance conversations prior to all this, or are they now blindsided the moment that you tell them they're not meeting expectations?

And so that whole transparency tucked in togetherness, it's not a one-time isolated thing, it's, that's the way that you're showing up through the entire journey. you made me just think, I remember years ago I went hiking. My favorite place to hike is in Pololu Valley in Hawaii, and it's on the Big Island of Hawaii.

Loved it. Going down the mountain is a breeze, and it is wonderful. I just remember going down the mountain, I'm waving to people, I'm saying hello, I am enjoying the view. And coming up, different ball game, Simon, sucked. I ain't gonna lie to you. All I remember was putting my head down and I stopped enjoying the view.

I stopped saying hello to people and it was just one foot in front of the other until I could make it to the top of the mountain. And I remember I

finally get to the top, I turn around and I look around and I go, "Huh,

I wonder how many people in life make it

to the top, but then they're standing there

all

alone." And I got to the top, right? Some people make it to the top of their career. These executives

that you're talking about, they made it to these high

roles, but you can be standing there and being all alone in that

process. And I think we're standing there alone when we didn't know how to take people with us in the process.

So I think I want

every leader to have high expectations for their people, but I also want you to have the conversations that you need along the way. I want you to recognize

the heck out of your people through the journey, not just at

the

end or at a big annual

celebration that happens once a year. I want you to think about the, empathy that you show before you

start just piling on the

next thing to

be going, "I know this has taken a lot out of you all, and you've had to sacrifice a lot of time with

your family

to do this, and sometimes that doesn't

feel fair. But I want you

to know we

appreciate you." Like just taking that moment to

acknowledge

people, to see people as we were talking about. It's 100 of those small things that build trust, not one big thing, some big magic wand that I can come in and try to help people do differently. I think the big thing is, as an

executive leader Your people have to feel like you are in it with them, not that you don't get them.

So every policy change you make, every decision you

come out with, every time

you step on that stage at a

conference, they're looking at you to say, "Does this person get us, and do I feel

like we're in it together

or are we not?" And trust is only built when they feel like we're in it together

[00:33:09] Simon Vetter (2): I like that phrase, empathy before information. Oftentimes we just give the goals, the information, here's what we do, and not kind of meeting people where they are

[00:33:20] Justin Patton (2): Yeah. My pastor once said, he said exactly what you just said. My pastor once said, he goes, " You can't meet people where they are

when you think you're above them." I love that line so much. You can't meet people where they are when you think you're above them. And it taught me, , I'm a driver. I am a fast-paced thinker.

I'm like, I wanna get results. I'm, I am about winning. I wanna do everything I can to try to win. But it reminded me that in the process of, of go, go, go, which so all these organizations are, that I have to in the conversations that I'm having, it's doesn't take me... It takes me 15 seconds to slow down long enough to have a little bit of empathy before we keep moving on.

And someone listening to your podcast might be like, "Okay, but when do you do that?" 'Cause I don't think you do it, you have to do it all the time. But any time there's a high level of emotion or intensity, I think it's worth it. A customer comes and throws something on the counter and looks at us and says, "You all got this wrong."

I don't wanna drive right past it or try to, "Let me see, let me see your receipt." I wanna go, "Wow, I know that sucks, and we, it feels like we wasted your time, and we're gonna do everything we can to make it up to you." What are they gonna say then, Simon? Like, yeah. Like, there's nothing left because they felt seen, right?

So somebody comes to me and they're overwhelmed at work, their work performance is missing cause of what's going on at home. I'm a big believer that you can have empathy and accountability both. It's not one or the other. But I'm gonna look at them and I'm gonna be like, "I know it can be really hard and really challenging to figure out how to juggle work when it feels like life outside of this place is also overwhelming and crushing you sometimes, and you just don't even know how to show up."

And they're gonna be

like, "Yes." I didn't agree with anything that person said. I'm taking a moment to say, "I see you." And what it does is it instantly builds more trust between me and that person, and they are now more likely to open up even more. And the more information I have, I can do something different as a leader

[00:35:15] Simon Vetter (2): Powerful. Justin, where do you wanna go with your career? What's your vision

[00:35:20] Justin Patton (2): every book I write, I always say, "I'm only gonna write one more." But I am writing another book, and it's the one that I think for me will be kind of like the signature for my career. I, you know, you know, as, as time goes on, you evolve into what you really wanna be known for, what you want your legacy to be.

And for me, I'm writing a book obviously about trust, but it's about relational courage. What does it take to have the courage to turn towards each other versus away? And if there was something I can do with my life, whether that's books, television, on stages, coaching people, was to figure out ways to help people turn towards themselves a little bit more or turn towards each other when it's really easy to turn away.

And so that's what I hope I get to do with the rest of my career

[00:36:05] Simon Vetter (2): powerful and I like this area of courage. It takes a lot of courage to, speak up and say the things that, sometimes is hard to say in a relationship, in a meeting, Yeah.

[00:36:17] Justin Patton (2): Well, 'cause none of us wanna be uncomfortable, right? no one wants to look at our partner and be like, "I love you, but - we both know it feels like this isn't going the way we want it to go, and I'm scared 'cause I don't know how to fix it." Or to look at your direct report and say, "I feel like we've had the same conversation four times, and I no longer know how to help you."

that's the hard stuff. That's not easy, and for leaders that say, well, saying it's not hard, but how do you say it with tact and making sure that person feels like I'm not doing this, I'm not out to get you, I'm in it with you, but what I know is we can't continue this way anymore.

And so I wanna help people figure out ways of using their presence to turn towards each other in a way that says w- we got each other's back in this process, even sometimes when we don't agree

[00:37:00] Simon Vetter (2): One of the things every human being wants, and you mentioned it, they wanna be safe, they wanna be seen, they wanna be loved. And if we can give that in a way to people, we capture their support and followership.

[00:37:16] Justin Patton (2): Yeah

My favorite quote of all time, very similar, it comes from Oprah, and she said, " Everyone in life just wants to know three things. They wanna know, 'Do you see me? Do you hear me? And does what I say mean anything to

you?'" I would say everyone that

is listening to

your podcast, if they did nothing else after today but said, "You know what?

I'm just gonna use my presence a little bit more to make people feel seen, heard, and valued," everything, I think, would start to change, their relationship with their kids, their marriage, their friends, at work. And so I don't think any of us... I teach it for a living. I don't get it right all the time, but what I do is I get it right way more often, and I think that's the goal for all of us, is it doesn't-- It's not about perfection.

It's about consistency. And when we get it wrong, I can slow down long enough to be like, "I'm sorry. That sucked. I did not show up the way I needed. Let's try it again." And I think that's the courage that I hope that I have, but also help other people create in their own lives.

[00:38:13] Simon Vetter (2): Before we finish, is there any message, any concept, any final thought that you wanna share?

[00:38:21] Justin Patton (2): I would just say, , I'm in the data right now 'cause obviously writing my new book. I would just say I think there's three types of people. I think in life when someone around you in your life gets stuck, there's the people that go quiet.

They're like, "Someone else will take care of this. . You know, they'll get through

it." And so they kind of mind their own

business. I think there's the people that kind of are just having the time of their life. They know they got their stuff together, so they just go, they keep going and they're like, "They'll figure it out."

But then there's a third type of person, and this is

who I hope I am, which I haven't been throughout my whole life. It's the third type of person that when someone gets stuck, you're the person that shows up and say, "Hey, how's it going? What's going on? I'm not leaving until we figure this out." And I would say for all of us, I would encourage all of us

to be the

person that

turns towards people,

to be the person that notices, be the person that stays, in a world where it is so

much

easier to

avoid, to go

quiet.

and so that would probably be my message. This next week you are going to find someone at work or home that is probably stuck in

something. and when you have that moment, can you be like, "This is what that crazy guy on that podcast was talking about." Can you be the person that turns towards them and makes them feel just a little bit less alone in the world?

I think that's important.

[00:39:35] Simon Vetter (2): And how do you make that person feel seen, heard, and valuable?

Yeah

This is awesome. Where could we find you? If we wanna learn more about, read

more,

[00:39:47] Justin Patton (2): Yeah. So, justinpatton.com is the website. All my books are on Amazon or on the website as well. And then social media, JP Inspires, you know, kind of all, on all platforms, but JP Inspires, yeah.

so, so that's, that's where they can find me. And Simon, thank you. I, I just, I appreciate the, the message that you also are putting out into the world and inspiring people to think differently about their vision and how they're showing up.

I feel like we're kind of in different lanes, but, you know, kinda helping people think differently about how they're showing up, and I just appreciate you as well

[00:40:17] Simon Vetter (2): Thank you, We go in the same direction. I appreciate the conversations, your insight, your energy. So thank You very much,

Justin.

[00:40:24] Justin Patton (2): You got it.

[00:40:25] Simon Vetter (2): Cheers. Bye-bye

[00:40:26] Justin Patton (2): See ya.